In Episode 38 of the Tao of Chao Podcast, the roles reverse as Renee Scherzer interviews Philip Chao, author of From Save to Safe, diving into the core philosophy behind his framework for the risks associated with saving for and drawing income at retirement.
At the center of the conversation is a fundamental gap in employer sponsored retirement plans: the emphasis in accumulating assets and the mostly absent focus on delivering options for generating sustainable income in retirement.
With Renee leading the conversation, the discussion surfaces perspectives that are often implicit but rarely stated directly, challenging the assumption that saving alone will lead to retirement income security.
From Saving to Being “Safe”
Modern retirement systems can be highly effective at helping people save even though saving rates remain sub-par for many workers.
Automatic enrollment, default contribution rates, and default investing have made participation easier than ever. But according to Philip, this progress has been blind to creating sustainable income distribution choices in retirement and that saving alone is enough.
The From Save to Safe framework challenges that assumption.
Saving is only the first phase. Being “safe” means understanding whether prudent growth of lifetime assets while working and turn those savings into sustainable income that supports real-life needs and holds up over time.
The gap between those two states is where risk lives.
The “Unengaged” Trap
One of the biggest barriers to moving from saving to being safe is the “Unengaged” mindset until it’s a bit too late.
Automation encourages consistency, but it can also lead to disengagement within a system that already assumes saving equals success and even worst, assumes the pre-set savings amount is sufficient for everyone.
Many individuals contribute regularly without reassessing whether they are actually on track to produce reliable retirement income, thus leading to the under-saving which leads ton under-investment.
This creates a false sense of security—where activity is mistaken for readiness.
When Participation Masks Risk
High participation rates are often viewed as a sign of success.
But participation alone does not indicate preparedness.
Through the lens of From Save to Safe, participation without deeper evaluation can obscure real risk. Individuals may be saving consistently while remaining underprepared to generate income or sustain their standard of living in retirement.
What appears stable on the surface may not translate into real and reliable income in retirement.
Rethinking Fiduciary Responsibility
If the goal is not just saving—but ensuring participants become “safe”—then fiduciary responsibility must evolve.
Traditionally, fiduciaries have focused on plan design in the accumulation phase, investment selection, and compliance.
But Philip argues that this is no longer sufficient.
True fiduciary leadership requires a focus on the duality of saving and outcomes—helping individuals through default plan designs to more likely achieve accumulation objectives and the optionality of turning retirement assets into a reliable source of lifetime income.
Behavior Is Only Part of the Equation
The transition from saving to being safe is not just behavioral—it is structural.
While un-engagement is the default human behavior in the modern world, fiduciaries and plan sponsors need to focus on driving more retirement savings and improving plan designs for retirement income and distribution options.
The From Save to Safe framework emphasizes the need to address both behavioral and system design—ensuring individuals are not just participating, but actually progressing toward real outcomes. At the same time recognizing the human behavioral component of non-engagement. This calls for more automation but with personalization which is a giant leap from the current one-size-fits-call default approach.
From Awareness to Real Outcomes
At its core, this conversation reinforces a simple but important idea: saving is not the finish line and insufficient savings makes the finish line that much more distant.
Without alignment, income planning, and a clear framework for readiness, even consistent saving can fall short and not reach safety in retirement.
Episode 38 reframes how fiduciaries should reframe the employer sponsored defined contribution plan design. It is not a steady state. It is a progression—moving beyond savings, investing, accumulating and toward true financial security into decumulating, and deriving sustainable and reliable “safe” income for life in retirement.
Listen to the full episode to explore how shifting from Save to Safe changes the way we think about participation, risk, and long-term outcomes.
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